Israel's newspaper interviews 4 incels from this forum. (whole thing translated)

https://www.mako.co.il/women-weekend/Article-5c000a7af5be761006.htm?sCh=7d61bdd9ccbc4310

Gonna translate this cuz google translate gets some stuff wildly wrong. Also, nearly everyone is wildly misquoted, but that is ok because we have the original chats in case we need to sue for defamation. They put in a bunch of references to violence that do not characterize our community as we are non-violent, but here it is

Translated:

Last month, Reddit, the monstrous American forum, published a question that redefined the nightmare of contemporary parents. A father asked what he could do with his son, whom he called “An incel full of hatred.”

In a long post, the father described a decade of violent outbursts: The son molested a schoolgirl, snatched his sister’s underwear from a branch, harassed her 13-year-old girlfriend with intrusive questions and called his mother “a whore like all women.” Any attempt to send him to therapy or prevent him from accessing the forums from which he drew inspiration only radicalized his anger. When his sister was 18, he broke into her room and beat her and her boyfriend because he heard “whore sounds” from behind the wall, and finally stole private pictures from his mother’s phone - and sold them online. The father had no choice, and he went to the police. “I do not know why my son went down this way, but I’m sorry I disappointed him, I hope he will be arrested before he hits someone else,” he said in desperation.

The concept used by the father, “Incel,” is not alien to the tenants of a radio. After all, a number of [?] incel communities have been established (and removed). Today he is also no stranger to the American mainstream. Just recently, Law and Order devoted a special section to incels, which were marked as a risk to society. The concept is short for the phrase “Involuntary Celibates” that refers to anyone interested in intimate and romantic relationships - but fails.Elliot Roger “I’ll kill any blonde whore.” Roger Elliott| Photo: California Department of Motor Vehicles ASSOCIATED PRESS

The abbreviation was first invented in the 1990s by a Canadian lesbian named Elena, and like every hell it was also full of good intentions. Elena defined herself as an incel and established a site that would allow people like her, single men and women who can not find romantic partners, to meet and serve as an attentive ear to each other. But the years have passed, the community has grown stronger and made a twist: from a source of support it has become a place where friends fuel each other with racism, anti-Semitism, violence and rage. The Incels have forged a distorted world of values, a unique slang and a common language. They translated the sexual frustration into hatred of women; And the self-pity for male supremacy (similar to the white supremacy of the American Alt Right, which has quite a few similarities with the Incel community).

Here the story could end, how much interest can already be aroused by posts of rejected boys who write “all women [are] prostitutes” or “[???]” But then a few members of the community turned to the areas of tragic-American obsession: mass murder. The first was Elliott Rodger , [for the record elliot wasnt a member of any incel community] 22, who slaughtered six people at Santa Barbara College, not before setting up a 127-page hate manifesto and filming a YouTube video explaining his motives. “I’m a 22-year-old virgin, I have not even kissed a girl, it’s not fair,” he said to the camera. “I’ll kill any spoiled blonde whore I’ll see there, and I’ll see that I’m really superior, I remember the alpha.”

The incel community [wasnt an incel community, was an anti-pickup-artist board] where Rodger was active was closed after the murder, but it was too little and too late. To many, he became a legend. His name came as a source of inspiration for the murder of Chris Harper Mercer, also a virgin, who shot nine people at a college in Oregon; And a year later it was reported that Nicholas Cruz, who had murdered 17 students in Farland Florida, was known as his admirer. This year, two more [incel murderers] [appeared] : the first is Alek Minassian [who has not been found to be apart of any incel community unless you count 4chan] who ran over 10 people in Canada. Before [his] attack, he published a post in which he wrote “The Incel Revolution has begun.” The second was at the Yoga Center in Florida, when Scott Paul Beirella [who has not been confirmed to be apart of any incel community] murdered two women and committed suicide. After his death, the local police found inciting materials against women and minorities on his computer.

Photo: shutterstock

Three out of ten looking for the one

It’s hard to draw a uniform image of an incel. Not everyone answers the stereotype of the virgin geek. Some tell of a rich or at least satisfying social life, and some admit that they never even tried to talk to women and confess a long history of mental problems; There are those who hold entry jobs, and those who swear that their mother is their best friend [lol, generous phrasing /sarcasm]. One thing common to all is the burgeoning and obsessive preoccupation with the ideal of beauty and the sex economy, an attempt to determine their value in the market for singles. Almost all of the forums I visited included discussions about the height and analysis of the skull structure of famous male and female models.

Michael, a 23-year-old American who does not work at the moment, tends to upload pictures of his face to an incel Facebook group and ask friends to help him decide what is repugnant to them. “I have no problem analyzing it,” he says. “It’s important to understand that muscles do not help, and the face is not everything, that is the [??] effect, and those who do not look good have no chance.”

Do you think there are some kind of men women want?
Men can be desirable for a variety of reasons, but they all have to meet a certain threshold of external attractiveness, there must be at least three out of ten, and no woman will go out with anyone less than three, I do not blame anyone in my situation. You’ll go out with someone she’s not attracted to, but it’s not my fault, I know it’s not my personality, I make friends easily. "

Could it be due to mental problems?
“It’s a factor.”

Do you suffer from certain problems?
“Yes, obsessions, and depression as a result of my insularity, but these are not the reasons why I am incel.”

So why do not women want you?
“In my case it’s just how I look, and that I do not have things in common with many women, I’m interested in things like chess, bodybuilding and music, and I find it hard to find girls who are interested in it.”George Sudini George Sudini. Shot 12 women at a gym in 2009| Photo: Gene J. Puskar AP

Ronen, an Israeli from the center of the country who works for a large high-tech company in the late 1920s, first kissed this year. In the conversation he talks about the importance of external appearance in the ability to make romantic connections. "I think an incel one who does not have the ability to make the opposite sex want to have sex with him, it can come from a number of things, it’s usually a combination of appearance and character, and the fact that [??] only shows how important sex is in our society. [??]

Do you believe there is a rating of what matters to women, in terms of appearance?
“Height and face is the most important, a tall man with a pretty face can get a girl, no matter how strange he is socially, and you see it.”

where?
“Have you ever seen a tall man with a pretty face and a virgin?”

Women can not be immortal?</b>
“A woman, even the ugliest, can find someone easily.”

Even if a woman finds a sex partner more easily, it does not necessarily mean that the man is interested in sex. They too can be lonely and unsatisfactory.
“Yes, and still, incels are happy to be a compromise.”

“Most incels will say the problem is in their faces, but if you go under the surface you’ll find it’s much more than that,” says Jonathan, a 28-year-old unemployed man from the United States. "incels sometimes publish pictures of them on the forums and people say to them, ‘You you do not look so bad,’ but ones face is only a small part of ones total body. It is much more common today for women to talk about their physical insecurity, not for men, and I admit that even if a man talks to me face to face about his physical insecurity, I will feel uncomfortable "He said.

Jonathan brings up a point that could have linked the Incel’s plight to the women’s struggle, the ideal of beauty and various kinds of [??[, but this bridge will probably never be built. Even though an incel will not declare openly and in full name that he hates women, her merger is already too deeply rooted in the community. In the Incel Wiki, for example, feminism is defined as “the process in which women take credit for most of the inventions of single men making them want to enter the labor market.” In their opinion, the perception that men have more power and choice than women is fundamentally wrong.

“Body image and standards for a male body are subjects that occupy the [self-described] incels all the time, but an incels will never align with feminists again,” Jonathan elaborates. “The only thing I like about feminism is that it makes men more feminine - and women are more masculine - besides feminism hurts incels because it expands women’s sexual freedom.”

How does women’s sexual freedom harm the insoles?
Jonathan: “The Internet and dating applications make women’s choices unlimited and encourages [??], so they will always choose the same 20% of men who look good. Men have more desire for sexual diversity among women [than women do of men], and fewer choices.”

So you’re against feminism just because it hurts men like you?
“Yes”.

All the young men I’ve talked to for the story place themselves somewhere on the insular continuum. None of them murdered, and most of them are opposed to violence against women. Most of them are cautious, do not want to create sensational titles or give a bad name to the community, if you can say anything like that at all. But the deeper you talk with them and turn to specific examples, the more troubling opinions emerge. Ian, in his twenties, a European who asks me not to reveal even his country of origin, talks to me from a temporary profile after his real profile was blocked by a post in which he called women whores. Although not a virgin, he defines himself as an incel. “I have not had sex for a year, and when everyone around me has sex and talks to whom they want, it’s clear that I’m not in certain situations.”

Ian wants to sharpen his thoughts about the subject of consent. “Animals do not ask consent to sex, they just jump on the female and take over, and people act as if we can get rid of rape when it’s deeply rooted in our roots on Earth.” He suggests, for example, the attraction of people to BDSM and consensual violence in sex. "The difference between rape and rape role games is that the rape victim does not enjoy it, but in a role-playing game she does enjoy it, it’s problematic for someone who lies with her to understand the difference, do you agree? ? "

So you too share the endless concept that "all women are prostitutes."
“Yes, I think most women are stupid and most women are whores, but it’s just my experience of talking to her … Men are also whores, but the difference is that women do not care that men are whores, it turns them on, most people are stupid, but women are more than men.”

" You look nice, but you’re a whore because you’re a woman," Ian adds, feeling that our conversation is nearing its end. “They have to fight them, keep them under control.” When I say goodbye, Ian wishes me a happy Hanukkah and thanks me for listening. “I have not received much attention from a woman for a long time, and you can talk about cinema next time.”

"I felt I was losing weight from my shoulders, it really helped me cope with the anger"

Like every community, the incels are also very busy about who belongs to the club and who is not. Is every adult virgin is an incel? Could an incel be able to deny himself this fate through the sex industry? “incel is a definition of someone who can not find a partner from the gender to which he is attracted,” Ronen repeats his friends’ messages. “And when a man pays a woman for sex, he still remains a man no one wanted to sleep with.” Jonathan, who had never kissed, came to a similar conclusion but the road was a long one.

Jonathan is one of the few incels who are not afraid to speak openly about his distress. In a video that he brought up to his vlog and accumulated tens of thousands of views, he tells of his journey to Nevada, where prostitution is legal, with the aim of losing his virginity. “The girls themselves cost about $ 200, less than an illegal prostitution where I live,” he says. "I felt I was losing weight from my shoulders, it really helped me cope with the anger, but after I got home, I was back as an incel, I could not reproduce what I felt in Nevada, and it made me depressed again. "He said.

Through the vlogs Jonathan accumulated a [very small] audience of fans, as he defined it, and this resulted in his first girlfriend, a graduate student in [rehab counseling] (“One of the few types of women interested in incels”), whom he has not met to this day. “Women do not want to hear that their potential date is incel, but as a result of the assassinations, they got the image of bad [boys], and that’s special.”

When I ask Jonathan how he managed to pay himself a trip to Nevada, which cost him almost $ 10,000, he discovers that he is making money from what he calls “gay-for-pay.” "I do sexual favors for men on websites, I do not enjoy it, I do not get romantic for men, I do it when I really can not afford to buy food, if only I could have done it to women, but only one woman paid me. People suggest that insoles are gay, it’s insulting for us, there are not many people in the closet. "

Did not you feel uncomfortable paying women for sex, when you yourself get money to do things you do not want?
"One of the [brothel workers] I paid contacted me a year and a half after she wanted us to talk, otherwise she wanted to go out with me, I thought they were giving me their number because they wanted me to spend more money on them, but they behave like girlfriends. Men and women who are at the bottom of the social ladder [throughout history] generally know prostitutes well, and I did not feel guilty. "

One of the popular getaway routes for singles and singles from the dating market is Tinder and other applications. For an incel, it’s hell. “In real life even a less attractive guy can make himself a priority over other men just by being in a certain woman’s environment long enough,” explains Jonathan. “On dating applications other hand, the situation is more extreme, women choose men who are very beautiful or successful, and many people are left behind.”

Although Jonathan is active in dating applications, he says he gets no more than two matches a month. "Once I accidentally changed the picture into a picture of a muscular man lying on the sofa with his girlfriend and got one mach every fifteen minutes or so. This is what makes people extreme, and makes them hate women. they see that if they exchange a picture they get a lot more matches.

Which brings us back to the question of whether appearance is more important than character?

Jonathan: "In dating apps, looks is the only thing that matters. However, on Youtube it’s enough to be consistent and popular. In real life the most important thing is your social circle and the generosity of your friends. But I am not an average man, I would say a four out of ten in pictures and three out of ten in real life, I do not have enough muscle, and I suffer from chronic fatigue, so I can not even train, I also have a severe acne problem and now I’m trying to raise money to give myself the appropriate treatment. ".

So dating apps do not help, and even turning to prostitutes does not help - even if moral issues about these women do not interest the incels. And so, at least for the incels who have not yet given up, there is no alternative but to try to woo women. Michael is one of the bravest guys. If other respondents admit that they never approached a woman in real life, Michael says he has already received hundreds of rejections. When I talk to him, at 4 AM (his local time), he tells me that he is exhausted from thinking about women "15 years, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, I do not exaggerate, everything else I’ve ever thought of is just a secondary thought. I fell in love with girls while I was in kindergarten. Every second I think about women. "

Photo: shutterstock

“If one of the hundreds of women I tried to start a relationship with with would tell me yes, I might believe I have hope,” he continues. “But my chance is like that of a poor person who suddenly gets a lottery. And as far as I’m concerned, mentalcels (incels who never tried to create romantic dynamics) are not incel.” You must try and fail again and again to define yourself as such. When I ask Michael how he can help guys like him, he says he’s not sure himself, but that they can be given better caregivers or at least given drugs to help suppress the libido. “It will not help the social aspect, but at least we will not be horny all the time, and I would be happy to have some better matchmakers and those who will not steal you, so far I spent $ 7,000 on matchmakers.”

“Most of the incels, including me, never seriously tried to date women outside the Internet,” adds Jonathan. "The decline in organized marriage and matchmaking and the rise in technology have created a situation in which young men do not have many options to meet women outside the Internet. Women, or they do not have many women in the work environment [because they work in a technical field]. "

A lot of incels really said they hardly ever communicate with women in real life.
“Obviously, they are afraid of repentance and rejection, and women have made it very clear that they do not like men cold-approaching approaching them, but there is no substitute for that.”

“All you need to get out of dating is the sexual affection of one woman [in the entire world], and when there is not one woman [and no reason, or dishonest reasons given], anger starts,” Jonathan concludes. "There are incel who came out of this cycle, started dating and even managed to have sex, but then realized that women are simply not worth the effort.

Are you angry too?
Jonathan: “Yes, but not about women, but about society that does not know how to deal with incels. Since since I lost my virginity and found a girlfriend, I am much less angry.”

“Men murder women all the time, the [reprehensible] violent incels are a drop in the sea”

Fear of defiance, hatred on the outside Feelings of shame and rage make insoles even deeper into the online communities they have built for themselves, and generally spend more time online, where women can be hated and freely expressed. But beyond the damage and distress, these communities provide a lot of solidarity. In one of the forums in Reddit, for example, there is a special thread dedicated to members who announced that they plan to commit suicide and have since disappeared. “Until I knew these places, I thought I was alone, and loneliness was the hardest thing, I did not believe there were other virgins like me at my age,” says Ronen.

If you could give up everything, would you rather be born as a woman?
[??] The only privileges a man has is that he does not get a period and does not have to give birth."

Women earn less, are more sexually assaulted.
Do you think my high-tech colleagues with me make less than me? Perhaps only because they have less experience. Most women simply go to professions that earn less and work less hours, and therefore earn less. "

Speaking of work, there are rich incels?
“Yes, although they usually find some kind of gold-digger. But look at Tzuki, with all his money, only his wife wants him.”

How do you know she’s the only one?
“He was considered repulsive by women, and even his wife would have preferred someone who looked better.”

Do you think that without Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg would also have been incel?
Yes, chances are. "

Jonathan also insists that forums are the only place where he can talk about his problems. "Incel is not a choice and it causes depression, and the forums are the only thing that is good for my mental health. I have been in many conversations and the therapists in the US do not want to talk about issues like ugliness, appearance and body image of men. They do not realize that dating problems can cause anxiety and depression. Every time I tried to talk to a psychologist about my body image they dismissed it in one sentence, or completely ignored it. They can not deal with these issues when it comes to men. "

“If your article comes out empathically you’ll be pretty much one of three people who wrote about incel with empathy, I know at least two of the journalists,” he continues. "The rest of the articles are full of hatred, the media has already exposed the violence in the community, it’s true, but men are murdering women all the time, the [reprehensible violent] incels are a drop in the sea.

Against the background of everything you said, how can we as a society help Insoles?
“I believe that dating applications need to be controlled by the state that will impose a tax on every time people get a match.” These taxes, combined with taxes that unmarried women will pay for contraception, will finance legal sexual surrogates for incels, and this is my plan and you can quote me. "

nice, thanks for this, do you mind if I link this elsewhere?

why not? :thinking:

interesting question for a journalist :no_mouth:

anyway I too support Mark Zuckerberg for president now

only interviewing straightcels smh

1 Like

better than I thought it would be, like you said the conflation of violence with non-violent forums like ours was pretty sleazy

I dont get how gay men can be incel, I’ve been asked out by gay dudes a decent amount because Im a bodybuilder. The just lift advice works more by far for gay men than straight men.

@Konev mentalcels… almost all of them
notice the lack of gay men here